Claret Knight - immune to triggered effects

konx a écrit:Hi everyone

first of all let me thank the organizers for the event. It was in an awesome location and everything was done perfect.

Second, I am writing to you because of the Claret Knight question that occurred during the tournament. For the interested people, the question is the following: if the Claret Knight is the only available choice for a sacrifice effect (such as Many Angled Thing or The temple) is he going to die? According to the French guys the answer was yes, according to me and the Spanish guys the answer is no. 

Last year in Spain, at the regional, there was the same question and back then I had the same opinion as the French. Unfortunately, it had already been asked to Damon by the Spanish, and this is the answer they got back. TL;DR: no, Claret Knight is not eligible to be sacrificed is he is the only character in play.



One of our main problems is The Claret Knight, a card that appears in everyone's deck as the immunity (as we play it) is brutal, and causes a lot of trouble among our community... Could you explain in detail how it works?
These are some of the problematic situations we have found:

1) What happens when my opponent plays Many Angled Thing and I only control a Claret Knight? In this case the triggered effect targets a player, not a card2) If my opponent triggers the Temple of R'lyeh and I have to sacrifice a character, can I choose my Claret Knight? 3) Some effects don't have a specific target, as in The Plague Stone. Would The Claret Knight be immune to The Plague Stone as well?

If The Claret Knight is immune to anything that comes after a Bold word:, the only way to get rid of it would be winning a combat struggle or using a card with a passive effect (such as Stygian Eye to take control of it, or Frozen Time to blank its text), is that right?

And his answer:
Indeed, any triggered effect that targets a character cannot target The Claret Knight and any triggered effect that is un-targeted is ignored by The Claret Knight. The only way to directly affect The Claret Knight with card effects is through passives or a triggered effect that creates a lasting condition that alters the game rules in some fashion (for example, a card effect that changes how the Combat struggle is resolved and lets me choose which of my opponent’s characters to wound at a story if I win, rather then him, would let me wound The Clare Knight because that affect is resolving on the Challenge Struggle itself not the character, and by the time the Combat struggle is being resolved that effect has already resolved). 

1) An effect that forces a player to choose a character to sacrifice is still targeting The Claret Knight (it says who does the choosing, but The Claret Knight is still the thing that would have to be chosen so it would ignore the effect).2) An effect that chooses a player and forces them to do something would still be a targeted effect trying to resolve on The Claret Knight which he would then ignore.3) Just like with 2, The Claret Knight ignores triggered effects, regardless of how it would try to be applied to him.

It should be noted that because The Claret Knight would ignores all of the effect, other characters would have to be chosen if at all possible, and if there was no other character to be chosen, the effect still is ignored by The Claret Knight.




Hope it helps, guys 

Konx

Hi Konx, thank you to come. I expect you and Priscilla have had a lot of fun in Paris.

About Claret Knight.

When you are running a tournament, you are using the official ruling you can find in the rules book or in the last FAQ (as said in the news for this open). All ruling from boards, mails, etc. are not used. When you think, there can be a particular problem with a card you can always ask before the tournament and we can act a common rules for, an only for, this tournament. But in all case the TO(s) are the final judge(s).


Tournament rules v3.0
Sanctioned tournaments are played
using the most recent rules set and
most updated version of the official
FAQ document, which can be found
at (http://www.fantasyflightgames.
com/edge_minisite_sec.
asp?eidm=11&esem=4) at any time.
Cards are interpreted using the
appropriate card rulings on the most
updated FAQ also found on the
website.

So in the current FAQ 3.4, immune is define in 2.36 :

Some cards have the card text “Immune
to X” in their text boxes. This means
that they cannot be targeted by cards
with that subtype and/or card type.
This also means that if a card with
that subtype and card type does not
target a specific character, but affects
all characters or a group of characters,
these cards ignores that effect. A
character can never be immune to its
own effects.

For example: Alaskan Sledge Dog (Mountains
of Madness F16) reads “Immune to Polar
events.” This means that the card cannot be
targeted by any event cards with the Polar
subtype. In addition, if there was a card effect
with the Polar subtype that affects all characters,
Alaskan Sledge Dog would not be affected.

Two things are said in this entry, nothing else:

a) An immune card cannot be targeted by cards. It means for the CK, a card with a triggered effect cannot target the CK (ex: a Deep one Assault cannot target the CK).
The triggered effect from an  Cursed Skull (Murmurs of Evil F40) or  Many-angled Thing (The Gleaming Spiral F99) for example are not targeting a card, but a player. Then the player have to do something (sacrifice a card in this case), the player is not a triggered effect   .

b) An immune card ignores all mass effects. It means for the CK,  a card with a triggering effect as “destroy all characters in play” will not destroy him (the CK is immuned to the plague stone for exemple). The triggered effect from an  Cursed Skull (Murmurs of Evil F40) or  Many-angled Thing (The Gleaming Spiral F99) is not a mass effect, the targeted player have to choose only 1 character.


So may, be Damon have the idea, the CK is protected from cursed skull and cie but in this case he has to complete/change the ruling from the entry 2.36 (May be add something about untargeted’s effects which are not mass effects).

So, we will wait for a next official faq to play it in another way in our meta and tournaments.

Je viens de poser la question http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/132541-claret-knight-and-indirect-triggered-effects/

Would that mean the Church Operative works (when it is Day) with effects like Cursed Skull or Temple of R'Lyeh ? If it does, let's say I have 3 characters in play (Church Operative, a and a ), if I decide to choose the Agency one to be sacrificed, will it force my opponent to discard a card from his hand ?

Budmilka a écrit:Would that mean the Church Operative works (when it is Day) with effects like Cursed Skull or Temple of R'Lyeh ? If it does, let's say I have 3 characters in play (Church Operative, a and a ), if I decide to choose the Agency one to be sacrificed, will it force my opponent to discard a card from his hand ?

Repost here:

Very good question...I would say yes, but who knows.

Maybe the fact that the choice of which character is going to be sacrificed is made after costs are paid does prevent the card to be discarded.

Or maybe if the opponent discard a card  when playing the sacrifice effect THEN you can target one of your agency characters. If the opponent DOES NOT discard a card, then you are forced to sacrifice a non-agency character to follow the restrictions as in the Claret Knight case (ie: if you have Claret Knight and another guy out, you are forced to sacrifice the other guy, because (quoting Damon)

Damon
It should be noted that because The Claret Knight would ignores all of the effect, other characters would have to be chosen if at all possible, and if there was no other character to be chosen, the effect still is ignored by The Claret Knight.
End-Damon

Actually, now that I write it down, this second option sounds more reasonable.

Konx

 

The Church Operative says "... each opponent must discard a card from his hand in order to target an character you control."

as said by the faq 3.4 (entry 1.9), "not every effect that resolve on a card is targeted. An effect that resolves on 1 or more cards without specifically using the word “choose” is not a targeted effect."

So with cursed skull or the temple in the sentences "the opponent must sacrifice a character" you have not the word 'choose'. It's not a targeted effect, your opponent have nothing to discard.

dadajef a écrit:
Hi Konx, thank you to come. I expect you and Priscilla have had a lot of fun in Paris.

About Claret Knight.

When you are running a tournament, you are using the official ruling you can find in the rules book or in the last FAQ (as said in the news for this open). All ruling from boards, mails, etc. are not used. When you think, there can be a particular problem with a card you can always ask before the tournament and we can act a common rules for, an only for, this tournament. But in all case the TO(s) are the final judge(s).


Tournament rules v3.0
Sanctioned tournaments are played
using the most recent rules set and
most updated version of the official
FAQ document, which can be found
at (http://www.fantasyflightgames.
com/edge_minisite_sec.
asp?eidm=11&esem=4) at any time.
Cards are interpreted using the
appropriate card rulings on the most
updated FAQ also found on the
website.

So in the current FAQ 3.4, immune is define in 2.36 :

Some cards have the card text “Immune
to X” in their text boxes. This means
that they cannot be targeted by cards
with that subtype and/or card type.
This also means that if a card with
that subtype and card type does not
target a specific character, but affects
all characters or a group of characters,
these cards ignores that effect. A
character can never be immune to its
own effects.

For example: Alaskan Sledge Dog (Mountains
of Madness F16) reads “Immune to Polar
events.” This means that the card cannot be
targeted by any event cards with the Polar
subtype. In addition, if there was a card effect
with the Polar subtype that affects all characters,
Alaskan Sledge Dog would not be affected.

Two things are said in this entry, nothing else:

a) An immune card cannot be targeted by cards. It means for the CK, a card with a triggered effect cannot target the CK (ex: a Deep one Assault cannot target the CK).
The triggered effect from an  Cursed Skull (Murmurs of Evil F40) or  Many-angled Thing (The Gleaming Spiral F99) for example are not targeting a card, but a player. Then the player have to do something (sacrifice a card in this case), the player is not a triggered effect   .

b) An immune card ignores all mass effects. It means for the CK,  a card with a triggering effect as “destroy all characters in play” will not destroy him (the CK is immuned to the plague stone for exemple). The triggered effect from an  Cursed Skull (Murmurs of Evil F40) or  Many-angled Thing (The Gleaming Spiral F99) is not a mass effect, the targeted player have to choose only 1 character.


So may, be Damon have the idea, the CK is protected from cursed skull and cie but in this case he has to complete/change the ruling from the entry 2.36 (May be add something about untargeted’s effects which are not mass effects).

So, we will wait for a next official faq to play it in another way in our meta and tournaments.

It seems like my answer to you got lost somewhere, so I write it here again:

let me be clear: I am not complaining about how you handled things at the tournament. I was writing the post just to let you see the mail we received from Damon

On another note, just by reading the FAQ and keeping in mind Damon, one might argue that this paragraph is enough:

-- quote the FAQ:

if a card with
that subtype and card type does not
target a specific character, but affects
all characters or a group of characters,
these cards ignores that effect.

-- end of FAQ

A sacrifice effect does not target but indeed affects all characters. The player is targeted, but all his characters are potentially affected by the sacrifice. Which means that Claret Knight is immune for this reason.

I am being a bit of a rule-lawyer here, but it doesn't sound too strange that this is the interpretation, even in light of Damon's mail.

Konx

konx a écrit:
-- quote the FAQ:

if a card with
that subtype and card type does not
target a specific character, but affects
all characters or a group of characters,
these cards ignores that effect.

-- end of FAQ

A sacrifice effect does not target but indeed affects all characters. The player is targeted, but all his characters are potentially affected by the sacrifice. Which means that Claret Knight is immune for this reason.

Yes, it could work like that, that's true. May be, 'sacrifice' explained as a 'mass effect' could be the point to clarify in the rule.