Internationaliser les championnats onlines

par kriss Mer 10 Aoû 2011 - 23:08

Suite à une petite discution avec Dadajef, j'ai directement posté sur le forum FFG US.
En gros j'expose les avantages de lackey et celui de faire des parties onlines vis à vis de la communauté dont la population décroit.
Je donne aussi les raisons pour lesquelles jouer à un jeu gratuit ne va pas pénaliser les ventes des cartes (bien au contraire)
J'ai demandé humblement un accord des modos/admin pour proposer/diffuser les tournois sur le site: je pense que si j'ai accès à la source (le forum officiel), il y aura potentiellement + de joueurs et la communauté online grandira plus facilement (surtout si FFG donne un accord de principe).

Pour le moment les réponses des joueurs sont plutôt positives et au moins ca fait plaisir, reste à voir le moment où un admin/modo va poser ses gros sabots dans mon topic et m'expliquer pour quelles raisons il ne va pas accepter ma proposition Rolling Eyes

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=35&efcid=4&efidt=534570#534713

par sectario Jeu 11 Aoû 2011 - 18:48

Hi,
You can contact with a FFG staff in this page: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_atencion.asp

luck with the initiative!!

Regards

par FredhoT Jeu 11 Aoû 2011 - 21:32

Je pense que le forum de FFG n'est peut-être pas la meilleure place pour parler de lackeyccg, même si tu n'es pas le premier à en parler.
Tant qu'on ne remue pas les choses au niveau de FFG, ils nous foutent la paix et laisse Sadric ou encore Nyarla mettre gratuitement à disposition des freewares contenant des images scannées, et cela presque en même temps que la sortie des cartes. Si tu leur poses explicitement la question, ils n'auront peut-être plus la possibilité de laisser passer et de faire comme si ils ne savaient pas. D'où le risque de les voir menacer Sadric et Nyarla d'arrêter la distribution de leur plug-in ou freeware...

Attention, ton intention est louable, mais à nouveau, les américains ont une approche légale du copyright qui est assez pénible et rigide. J'ai déjà suivi des discussions sur des forums à propos des copyright sur la familles des jeux 18xx (1830,...). Des malades, j'te dis... Rolling Eyes

Donc moi je dis, pour vivre heureux, vivons cachés... What a Face

Enfin, en attendant de voir si FFG réagit, un forum plus neutre sur lequel tu pourrais poster ton appel à participants:
http://www.cardgamedb.com/

par kriss Jeu 11 Aoû 2011 - 22:53

J'y ai pensé aussi mais apparemment ils foutent la paix à ceux qui font vivre le plugging GoT sur octgn, du moment qu'ils ne diffusent pas les cartes avant une certaine date (c'est ce qu'un membre a posté sur mon topic.. à vérifier).
Je suis d'accord que vivre caché est souvent mieux, mais là j'estime que Coc a besoin d'une meilleure visibilité et ca passe par le forum officiel, s'il faut faire quelques compromis ca peut valoir le coup.
Je ne pense pas que FFG puisse menacer des utilisateurs d'un soft gratuit : ca leur prendrait bcp de temps, d’énergie et d'argent pour gagner que dalle et en l’occurrence c'est non lucratif

Thanks sectario i seen this page before, but what's the department to contact ?

par Prodigee Ven 12 Aoû 2011 - 7:12

Là, franchement, je te mets en garde ...

Tu es jeune sur le forum, tu n'as pas connu la période où on a voulu faire la même chose avec un autre logiciel que Lackeyccg (vassal, Tzuntsu). Pareil, on a signaler notre existence à FFG et on s'est pris une volée de bois verts.

Détrompes-toi, il ont une personne qui se charge des droits qui est pénible et ne laisse aucune marge de manoeuvre. C'est ce qui avait tué notre projet de pack de cartes du Cénacle.
Nyarla a l'intelligence d'être autonome et de rester loin d'eux, je te conseille la même chose.

Que les softs soient gratuits ou payants, j'ai eu une sale expérience et même le propriétaire de Cthulhudbler pourra t'en parler. Ils se fichent de savoir si c'est lucratif ou non, ils veulent juste protéger leurs bébés.

par kriss Ven 12 Aoû 2011 - 7:44

Comme je l'ai posté sur leur forum, dont voici une partie

It seams there is same problem for a new player in lot of countries : find a partner to play with him.
When a player don't find a partner:

- he don't buy card
- stop to make deck
- finally sell all his cards to play another game !

I'm thinking FFG know this problem very well and I hope players from this forum will help me in my objective
Actually i'm giving informations about the freeware lackey and the CoC plugging made by a player (named Sadric)
I'm organizing friendly Online tournament in my forum and i want to make international online tournament /championship each month

Donc s'ils veulent protéger leur bébé, comme tu le pense, ils ne peuvent empêcher de jouer online, ni d’empêcher les joueurs de se rencontrer
Je suis quelqu'un d'un peu têtu et j'ai envie de voir grandir la communauté de ce jeu, mais c'est à mon humble avis, tres difficile voir impossible sans pouvoir utiliser le forum "officiel"

Il va falloir que je me renseigne, mais un membre du forum a posté que sur octgn , ffg ne prend pas la tete aux utilisateurs d'octgn pour certaines raisons : je vais me mettre en relation avec eux.

Quand au fait de vivre caché, je vais quand même leur parler du projet sans nommer des personnes (d'ailleurs je vais editer dans la journée pour enlever celui de Sadric), car j'estime que c'est un risque mineur (au pire ils vont m'ignorer ou me dire non) dans le cas où ils acceptent sous conditions (ce qui serait tout à fait normal), j'aurais fait avancer le bidule.
Je ne met pas de côté l’éventualité de prendre une gifle mais qui ne tente rien n'a rien.

De part ma position d'amateur je ne crains pas grand chose et au pire on restera comme on est !

Merci pour vos conseils avisés Smile

Fred je connais le site et je vais y jeter ma pavé, bonne idée What a Face

par FredhoT Ven 12 Aoû 2011 - 8:08

Kriss, je pense vraiment que tu risques de faire pire que bien. A nouveau n'attirons pas les projecteurs sur ce qui fonctionne bien sans.

Les conditions pour OCTGN: attendre plusieurs mois avant de pouvoir utiliser les nouvelles cartes --> or c'est justement ce que j'aime dans Lackey, pouvoir tester très vite les nouvelles cartes dès qu'elles sortent.

Je pense que tu ne gagneras pas énormément de nouveaux joueurs sur le forum officiel, et surtout pas mal seront GMT-5 (voir -9) donc pas toujours facile d'organiser une partie,...

Le risque c'est qu'à terme, on n'ait plus ni le plug-in de Sadric, ni le DB de Nyarla.

Comme le dit Prod, FFG ne peut pas se permettre d'être tolérant pour un et pas pour l'autre (en tous cas, c'est leur vision à l'américaine), donc si on leur met sous les yeux la violation de copyright (mise à disposition de fichiers images de qualité permettant, pour qui vaudrait frauder, de créer son propre jeu), ils se devront de réagir. Ils ont fait fermer un site web il y a 1 an, parce que celui-ci proposait de partager des decklists en image. Je pense que tu peux trouver l'histoire sur le forum du jeu dans BGG.

Et si c'est le cas, ils pourraient faire bloquer le serveur lackey au plug-in CoC LCG --> là je ne vois plus trop comment on jouerait encore online. Ou alors en hébergeant nous-même les parties (option IP mais ça marche moyennement), mais dans ce cas, le plug-in ne serait plus mis à jour et donc à moyen terme, on laisserait tomber car on ne pourrait plus jouer les decks qu'on voudrait essayer. L'an dernier j'ai arrêté de jouer avec Lackey notamment parce que l'américain qui le mettait à jour avait arrêté de l'updater --> pas moyen de monter les decks qu'on voulait.

par kriss Ven 12 Aoû 2011 - 9:14

En effet ca a l'air plutôt tendu...
C'est aussi pour connaitre tout ces effets indésirables que j'ai d'abord expliqué mon objectif avant de poster bille en tete la bas.

Ca me refroidi pas mal vu comme ca, je vais donc mettre de côté pour FFG !

Par contre il semble que je ne puisse pas éditer mes post sur leur forum!

par Arxlite Ven 12 Aoû 2011 - 10:07

Oh, mon dieu, c'est allé bien vite tout ça... pale

Je suppose que t'as demandé à Sadric et à Nyarla s'ils n'étaient pas contre ta démarche ?

Ces américains ont... comment dire... un sens de la propriété privée extrêmement développé ; à ne pas sous-estimer.

Et puis (n'en déplaise à ceux qui trouvent qu'on ne "se bouge pas le cul") c'est pas au consommateur, qui a déjà payé les cartes, de faire (gratuitement en plus) la publicité officielle pour leur jeu ; tracasse pas qu'ils ont suffisamment de moyens pour la faire eux-même s'ils le voulaient.

par kriss Ven 12 Aoû 2011 - 11:50

Je n'en ai pas parlé à nyarla car je n'ai pas parlé de lui quand à Sadric je ne lui en ai pas parlé car j'ai d'abord fait une suggestion sur le forum de FFG et j'attendais d'avoir des retours avant d'en parler (sur d'éventuelles contraintes comme ne pas spoiler les nouvelles cartes etc)
Pour le moent seuls les membres ont postés, pas l'ombre d'un admin ou modo

par Prodigee Sam 13 Aoû 2011 - 22:28

Tant mieux, ton intention est louable, mais ils sont tellement tatillons.

par kriss Jeu 1 Sep 2011 - 15:38

I think it should be better to talk about online in this topic instead of Deckbuilder

Jhaelen a écrit:
kriss a écrit:I had a similar talk on ffg forum and lot of player thinks like me :
- without opponent you don't play
- you don't play so you don't buy card
- you give up and sell your cards to play another game (thats the scheme i see since i know Cthulhu LCG)
Well, kriss, I think you are very enthusiastic about CoC, so I understand your desire to help 'spread the gospel'. However, on the FFG CoC forums you are just 'preaching to the converted'.

Things aren't as simple as you portrait it. Imho, the players who think playing CoC via Lackey is a good way to promote the game haven't thought this through and are guided by what they hope rather than what is reasonable or likely.

I've had quite a few discussions about related topics, and so far I've not seen any convincing evidence that providing a means for unrestricted, free, and easily accessible online play does anything to increase sales of the boardgame or cardgame that the online version is based on.

First, there's a simple truth: If something is available for free, people generally aren't willing to pay for it, unless they gain something above and beyond the free offer.

Now, let's consider a few similar areas:
- Do you think that the availability of DVDs has helped to increase the sales of cinema tickets?
- Do you think that the availability of ripped DVDs has helped to increase sales of DVDs?
- Do you think that the availability of pirated mp3s has helped to increase sales of music CDs?
- Do you think that the availability of scanned pdfs has helped to increase sales of books?
- Do you think that the availability of MMORPGs has helped to increase sales of tabletop rpgs?

Imho, the best you can hope for is that an online offer will not affect sales negatively, but it definitely will not increase sales.

Consider free trial versions for software: There's several approaches that work. Usually, the trial software is _restricted_ in some way, e.g. it doesn't include the full functionality, it only works for a limited time period or it lacks some other desirable feature that you only get when getting the full product version.
It could also be that the free software is less _accessible_, i.e. it's less user-friendly, requires more work or is more difficult to use. People _are_ willing to pay for something that is more convenient to use.

Maybe Nyarlazobec also has some data that might be relevant for this topic:
How many people download and use the DeckBuilder compared to the number of people that donate money?

Sometimes, new software products are also made available for free with unrestricted functionality in the hope to reach a wider audience and become well known. However, this is basically just the first stage in the sales strategy, like an 'open beta'. Once the software is used by a lot of people, the free version is pulled and replaced by a new version of the software that must be paid for.

That's, imho, the best you can hope for something like Lackey to achieve: Generate interest in the game to such a degree that after shutting Lackey down, people will be willing to buy into a non-free version of the software or (somewhat less likely) actually buy the cards.

Next, let's consider the kinds of people that might be interested in buying CoC:
1. There's the collectors who mainly desire to own the cards because they appreciate the artwork and theme of the game. I'm actually partially in that category.
2. There's the avid, 'pro' CCG players who enjoy nothing more than playing CCGs competitively and are very interested to participate in tournaments.
3. There's the casual gamer couples who get interested in playing CoC, because it's a two-player LCG.
4. Then there's the rest of the casual gamers who meet with friends more or less regularly to share an evening playing board or card games. I'm also part of this group, e.g. I've bought 'Arkham Horror' and all of its expansions, because in my circle of friends we play it regularly. But guess, how many of them (we're ten persons) decided to buy the game themselves? None. They like the game a lot, but if they want to play it, they ask me to come over or borrow the game. I also introduced several of them to CoC. Reactions were mixed, but no one decided to start buying cards for it. Even the most enthusiastic player wasn't interested because of the theme, instead he started buying into WH:I

I may have forgotten a category, but I think that mostly covers it. Now, how are these groups affected by Lackey and unrestricted, free online play?

Group 1 isn't affected at all. Whether they play the game via Lackey or not, they'll continue to buy the cards, because they enjoy collecting them.

Part of group 2 isn't affected either, because they need to buy the cards to play in tournaments. If they already own the cards, it might stop or delay them from selling the cards, though.
For another part, playing CoC via Lackey might actually win them over and get them to buy the cards. These players, however, are likely to give up a different CCG/LCG in favour of playing CoC. For FFG this might translate into increased sales (e.g. if they previously played a game by a competitor like MTG) or no net gain (if they previously played a different LCG from FFG like AGoT).

Group 3 isn't affected at all, since they're only interested in playing against each other at home.

Group 4 also isn't affected, unless they no longer have a chance to meet in person, e.g. because some of the move to a different city or country.

So, what kind of players do you think will be induced to _start_ buying the cards by playing via Lackey (except from a part of group 3)?

Imho, none. People playing via Lackey probably started using the software because they didn't find players in their area (or aren't interested in finding any). If they already have cards, they might as well sell them since they aren't required for online play. If they never had any, why should they start buying if they only know the players they're playing against online?

If they were really interested in playing face-to-face what they'd do is try to find players in their area by posting on internet forums.

I'm probably already starting to repeat myself and this post is already way too long, so to conclude it:
The best FFG can hope for Lackey to achieve is to stop players who are already invested in the game to cease buying cards. I.e. it might slow down or stabilize declining sales but it won't get them _more_ sales.

________________________________________

This is interesting post about Online game, but i think some exemples aren't really good.

Now, let's consider a few similar areas:
- Do you think that the availability of DVDs has helped to increase the sales of cinema tickets?
- Do you think that the availability of ripped DVDs has helped to increase sales of DVDs?
- Do you think that the availability of pirated mp3s has helped to increase sales of music CDs?
- Do you think that the availability of scanned pdfs has helped to increase sales of books?

You definitly can't compare interactive game with some non interactive activity, because we'll talk about game needing humans players.

I'm agree FFG don't earn money with lackey: that's a clear point but it's not my problem.
I spent money to have a versus game ( = game to play with other human) so it's normal i want some opponents to play with : that's the base of the game and it's why i give money to FFG

Nobody buy the game? i can't play online with others players? but why the hell i bought this damn game Shocked

?
That's the reality and i ask to everybody to keep that in mind : it's stupid to buy a versus game if you can't find opponents and actually LOT OF customers don't find opponent , that's the reality too !

Members from FFG forum and you talk about playing online will push players to sell physics cards, so i have a question : How wizard of the coast can earn money with magic ?
I can play with lackey, workstation and other but there are sooooo many cards sold each day... very strange

The fact is FFG can't earn money today with online: i'm agree with it, but each month there are more players give up to play Coc than want to start ...that's only FFG fault, not lackey fault.

FFG don't want to do online strategy? i can understand, that's why lackey is so important and i hope you'll understand why.Please take few minutes to think about this real exemple from CAPCOM:
You'll never see CAPCOM doing something without earn lot of money , they make Video game Street fighter 2,3,4 Resident evil etc etc and lot of add on just for money and now they sell a very old game : Street fighter 3.3 on xbox live.

Why does that firm will spend money and time to put a very old game on the live, they 're crazy ?
In fact NO, because since some years, you can play for free with a freeware named GGPO and challenge other players in the world (that sound like lackey IMO....).
Because CAPCOM realized the numbers of players, they make an online version of the game and in same time the free version disappear (like pirate manga video, when a french release is sold, you can't find pirate version in the net ! )

In conclusion :
Maybe Lackey is just the start of online Coc, maybe we'll pay to play online in the future, but in both cases playing online is a part of the game and not the end.
How many board games do you find in the net? take a look at vassal: http://www.vassalengine.org/
As Supa and FredhoT said : you can't replace real playing by online playing, that's why virtual players will buy card to play.
If a player don't pay to have real cards , this guy never give money to FFG with or without Lackey, because he's not the kind of customer to buy cards...

par Jekothalep Jeu 1 Sep 2011 - 16:37

kriss a écrit:J'y ai pensé aussi mais apparemment ils foutent la paix à ceux qui font vivre le plugging GoT sur octgn, du moment qu'ils ne diffusent pas les cartes avant une certaine date (c'est ce qu'un membre a posté sur mon topic.. à vérifier).
...

Peut-être pour clarifier un peu comment Gualdo gère le plugin octgn pour le trône de fer et les restrictions:
1) l'arrière-plan/la table contient une phrase visible que le Trône de Fer LCG est un produit de FFG, avec copyright, etc... (voir ici: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=16&efcid=4&efidt=215850)
2) toutes les cartes disponible dans les boutiques depuis plus que 6 mois peuvent être utilisées normalement
3) toutes les autres cartes (moins que 6 mois) sont aussi intégrées dans octgn, mais leur texte, force, etc... sont blanchis/censurés (tout, sauf le nom et les coûts).

Gualdo intègre les nouvelles cartes tout de suite sous forme censurée dans octgn (donc pas besoin d'attendre 6 mois pour tester les nouvelles cartes) et chaque mois il réinsère le texte des cartes qui sont entretemps disponible depuis plus que 6 mois.

Il a été contacté par Jeremy Stomberg, Operations Associate Fantasy Flight Games.

Gualdo a écrit:I received another mail and Jeremy told me that the problem is not using images of the cards but the text of them. He explains to me that only name of the card can be used so the person who owns the card knows it.

I think that I can act in this way. Delete text of cards from the deckbuilder and use only image of the cards and name of the cards (without crest, symbols, text keywords, strenght).

This solution for last 6 months cards. And then month per month I update the system adding cards and adding new ones censored.

I promised also that I will not post via mail the complete plugin. I think this is a good way to procede.

Remember that the program is open source and modifiable so if a local playgroup want to add their cards for local use they can easily.
...

A vérifier avec FFG s'il sera possible d'utiliser la même méthode, resp. s'il s'agit effectivement de toutes les exigences qu'ils imposent.
Bien possible que Chaosium possède aussi encore un droit de veto, who knows...

par kriss Jeu 1 Sep 2011 - 16:49

He explains to me that only name of the card can be used so the person who owns the card knows it.

C'est bien gentil et si l'adversaire ne connait pas la carte ?
Dans l'absolue je peux afficher les cartes avec textes et icones sur mon pc étant donné que le deckbuilder utilise la meme structure "numero de carte.jpg"

Donc en gros il faudrait faire en sorte que la mise à jour online tronque les cartes de moins de 6 mois et tu fais ta maj avec deckbuilder......
Donc en allant jusqu'au bout de l'idée, les regards vont se tourner vers le deckbuilder !
Je ne sais pas quoi en penser

Tu pourrais redonner le lien car celui que tu poste ne permet pas d'aller dans un topic: j'arrive à la racine !

par kriss Jeu 1 Sep 2011 - 17:51

Apres réflexion je me dis que ce n'est pas trop cher payé pour avoir du online "officiel", sachant qu'on a de toute façon acces aux cartes avec au moins 2 deckbuilder onlines + le deckbuilder de Nyarla, donc à voir.

Il serait judicieux que chacun s'exprime sur ce sujet et de mon côté je vais en toucher un mot à Sadric

par Jekothalep Jeu 1 Sep 2011 - 18:07

kriss a écrit:
He explains to me that only name of the card can be used so the person who owns the card knows it.
C'est bien gentil et si l'adversaire ne connait pas la carte ?
...

Ça c'est bien le point crucial.
Si l'adversaire ne connait pas le texte, il doit aller chercher sa copie physique.
Il en a pas? Ben, alors pourquoi il utilise les cartes de FFG sans en être en possession? Wink

C'est une méthode pour "assurer" que seulement ceux qui ont acheté les cartes puissent jouer en ligne.
("assurer" entre guillemets vu qu'on peut aussi retrouver les textes en ligne (dabbler et cardgamedb))

Bien-sûr c'est moins évident de jouer de cette façon là.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=16&efcid=4&efidt=215850
(la parenthèse à la fin du lien était en trop)

par FredhoT Jeu 1 Sep 2011 - 19:46

WTF,

Aujourd'hui FFG fout la paix à lackey et au plug-in CoC --> faisons en sorte que ça continue, n'attirons pas l'attention dessus et on pourra continuer à jouer relax online. Et je rappelle que je possède physiquement TOUTES les cartes LCG.

La discussion a démarré du fait que Kriss souhaite attirer des joueurs internationaux en postant un appel sur le forum officiel de FFG... et là je trouvais que c'était un peu "jouer avec le feu".

Comme je l'ai déjà dit, "pour vivre heureux, vivons cachés"...

et svp, pas de version "castrée" des cartes... lackey est déjà à la limite de l'acceptable point de vue ergonomie, si en plus on doit passer de lackey à DB en permanence...

par Jhaelen Jeu 1 Sep 2011 - 21:52

kriss a écrit:You definitly can't compare interactive game with some non interactive activity, because we'll talk about game needing humans players.

Well, I think all of the examples are somewhat relevant since they all deal with the conflict between physical items and their electronic counterpart, except for the comparison between DVDs and a cinema. An important point of going to the cinema instead of watching TV at home is the desire to experience the movie in public, among other people who share your interest in the movie. That's why I feel it's a similar situation to preferring face-to-face gaming to playing online. But it's okay if not all of the examples work for you.

kriss a écrit:I'm agree FFG don't earn money with lackey: that's a clear point but it's not my problem.

I'm glad we agree!

kriss a écrit:Nobody buy the game? i can't play online with others players? but why the hell i bought this damn game ?
That's the reality and i ask to everybody to keep that in mind : it's stupid to buy a versus game if you can't find opponents and actually LOT OF customers don't find opponent , that's the reality too !

I don't disagree. But what use are your physical cards, if the only way to play the game is online?

kriss a écrit:Members from FFG forum and you talk about playing online will push players to sell physics cards, so i have a question : How wizard of the coast can earn money with magic ?
I can play with lackey, workstation and other but there are sooooo many cards sold each day... very strange

One reason is that Magic Online isn't free. Another reason is that after buying a certain number of electronic cards you can have them send you printed cards 'for free'. If FFG did the same thing for CoC I'd register at once!

But it's interesting that you can also play Magic using Lackey. I would have thought that WotC should be interested in shutting it down, since it might detract from their Magic Online service.

kriss a écrit:The fact is FFG can't earn money today with online: i'm agree with it, but each month there are more players give up to play Coc than want to start ...that's only FFG fault, not lackey fault.

What facts do you base this on? Is there some way to see how many CoC players there are? I actually had the impression that the number of CoC players might be increasing, since there's a little more activity in the forums than about the time when the LCG started.

kriss a écrit:Please take few minutes to think about this real exemple from CAPCOM:[...]

This seems to be similar to what Blizzard is doing with Diablo: You can play the game for free on their Battle-Net servers and even after well over ten years they still support the game and continue to release patches, etc. Interestingly their latest patch removed the requirement to have your Diablo CD in your drive! It's true that they do this mainly to make sure interest in the game never ceases.
What is even more interesting is that they plan to integrate an auction house in the game which will allow players to buy and sell virtual equipment (armor, weapons, etc.) using virtual or even real money! Obviously they're doing this to get rid of all the illegal offers.

kriss a écrit:In conclusion :
Maybe Lackey is just the start of online Coc, maybe we'll pay to play online in the future, but in both cases playing online is a part of the game and not the end.

I agree. I remember several attempts to implement online apps to play Arkham Horror. In every case FFG has asked the programmers to take them off the internet. Now, they offer their own solution: The Arkham Horror Toolkit. To use it you have to buy the app and acquire the cardsets seprately for each expansion. I could see them doing the same thing for CoC.

kriss a écrit:As Supa and FredhoT said : you can't replace real playing by online playing, that's why virtual players will buy card to play.
If a player don't pay to have real cards , this guy never give money to FFG with or without Lackey, because he's not the kind of customer to buy cards...

I'm again in agreement about both points.

Regarding the first point, remember that I mentioned, there are three properties an online solution must have to be a danger for FFG's sale of physical cards: It must be free, unrestricted, and accessible. Judging from what I've seen and heard about Lackey, the third property seems to be lacking in Lackey: It is difficult to install, configure and use.

The best example to illustrate how important accessibility and user-friendliness is World of Warcraft. There have been many moderately MMORPGs before and after it was released but so far no other game managed to be as successful as WoW. I played a MMORPG for a couple of years, too, and I remember quite well when I started playing it for the first time that it took me almost half an hour to figure out how to move my avatar around! You basically had to program your own macros to achieve anything in the game and that's definitely not the right way to attract a lot of players!
WoW was designed to be easy and even addictive to play (like all Blizzard titles) so it attracted lots of players in no time, although graphics and gameplay were inferior to most of the other available MMORPGs.

So, to get back to Lackey: What if playing CoC over Lackey was just as quick, easy and convenient as playing face-to-face, in addition to being free and containing all the cards?
There are already advantages over the physical cards: Zero setup time after creating a deck and it doesn't matter if you suck at shuffling cards (like me!).

And regarding your second point: Of course there are players who wouldn't buy the cards no matter what even if they don't mind playing CoC online. It could be because they cannot or don't want to spend money for gaming or because they already spend their disposable income in a different game (or games).

If you only have the money for a single CCG/LCG it really has to be the one you enjoy playing most. I considered stopping to buy CoC myself. What made me change my mind was
a) that me and my friends didn't enjoy playing the LotR LCG as much as I'd hoped, and
b) that I no longer spend much money for tabletop rpgs.

The latter is btw. actually a consequence of one of my examples: WotC used to release about 30 D&D books a year of which I bought about 50%. Now they have an offer called D&D Insider which allows you to access the books' contents online, conveniently integrated into a database with a bunch of tools to easily create player characters, monsters, and encounters. Currently they work on adding a 'virtual table top' solution.

But at the same time they drastrically reduced the number of physical products: First it went down to about a dozen books a year, now it's closer to about six a year. They also moved from hardcover books to boxes that come with additional goodies like cards, tokens, tiles, and poster maps. Why they are doing this? Because it was only a matter of hours until the books were made available for free, so they need to something that isn't as easily reproducable online. And we're talking here about the biggest rpg system world-wide!

par kriss Jeu 1 Sep 2011 - 22:53

Jhaelen : i'm glad we have some common view Very Happy

This discution start, not because i want to play with all the world, but i want to play with more than 10 players (and you can count only 5 players availables at this moment) ... that's the number of differents players i challenge since 6 month, it's a pity. I can challeng more than 10x this number in 1 day at magic or any other cards game.
So yes, i'm a little angry about that and yes i want to change it but with the good means.

Actually we can use lackey as we want , add cards, play with... some players and it's perfect to test our deck in solo.
Nobody wants to put this plugging in sun light , because everybody's afraid about FFG and everybody are thinking FFG will crush lackey with their heavy hammer of justice.
I'm agree it's convenient to use a freeware with all functions and pay nothing to test deck and "eventually" play with friends but it's not the objective of a versus game. Versus game is made to challenge others, if you don't want to challenge other then you should go to play flipper What a Face

.

So the problem seams to be :
- FFG and lot of players thinks to use lackey is like download film, music by peer to peer, so it's BAD
- Players can't challenge with others because this game lacks of players: maybe it's better now than before the end of CCG but honestly it's NOTHING when you take a look at Agot, Lotr, Magic, Yugioh, Pokemon.

So.. what's the point ?
I'm thinking the best way is maybe to make another plugging with some restrictions to be approuved by FFG and the entire community.
Now, i understand lot of players like a lot COC LCG so much, they're afraid about virtual free online playing and consequence about players stop buying cards (so editor stop to release the game)
Make an "official" plugging that FFG can "accept" (i mean a plugging they don't crush), will definitly stop all discutions about copyright and others.
The only things FFG ask , is to mask icon and text box for 6 months for each Asylum pack and add some copyright on the virtual board background

- Everybody here have real cards they use for virtual deck
- Everybody can use a deckbuilder (web or software) to see complete card
- Everybody want to have FFG continue to sell cards
- Everybody here want to challenge others
so, what is the problem ?

In any case i'll contact Gualdo to obtain some feedback about his emails with FFG and how he ask about AGoT, so FFG isn't contacted right now!

I have talked with Sadric and he's not disagree about upload censured cards
we can switch lackey cards with deckbuilder for a local using (as Gualdo said about his AGot plugging )

par FredhoT Ven 2 Sep 2011 - 8:00

OK.

So let's assume lackey switches to the "Gualdo system" approved by FFG.
Do you think you will attract more online players with a nerfed-lackey?
If you can attract 2-3 more via FFG website with their benediction, we can consider ourselves lucky. BUT, how many current players will you detract from using the Coc plug-in? For sure me.

So again, Why do you want to change something which is working well? Instead of 5, we will be 8... ow my!
You're probably one of the most frequent CoC lackey player, but it does not give you the right to make things changing in a way that not all other current users agree with, with the risk that in the end, we will have no CoC plug-in anymore... it's not worth it, IMHO. So please stop putting the plug-in in risky situations.

When I scanned all the images for Nyarla for the DB updates, I know I was doing something illegal. I just tried not to say it too loud. And it suited every DB users. And to speak frankly, I'm convinced I did not kill FFG's business doing that.

par Selpoivre Ven 2 Sep 2011 - 8:33

kriss a écrit:The only things FFG ask , is to mask icon and text box for 6 months for each Asylum pack and add some copyright on the virtual board background

Thank you for killing any interest I might have had one day in online play.

Playing with text-less cards for the 6 most recent AP and relying on the DB or other card scans to find out what the latest cards do is a severe flaw in my opinion.

And now that you have attracted FFG's attention to our online tools (Lackey/Cthulhu Deckbuilder), nothing will stop them from preventing Nyarla from including viable scans in the DB, which will render the program completely useless...

Nice job breaking it, hero...

par kriss Ven 2 Sep 2011 - 9:11

I don't really understand ..
How could you tell : "Why do you want to change something which is working well?"
Of course i won't change nothing if i found player on lackey, but that's not the case

How many members use lackey 1 time by week ?
I see only 10 players in 6 months and only 5 are "regular" player (means 2 times by week).
As i said you can change cards for local use so, please read completly my post before answer !

Selpoivre : i never see you on lackey, i even think you never installed it and i never said i 'll talk about Deckbulder to FFG
You know, Nyarla post himself his deckbuilder on ffg forum, he don't need me to attract attention from FFG

If you want to continue to play with nobody, fine, that's your choice, but lackey isn't a software to test your deck in solo !
If Sadric take time to make plugging, it's to play with more players too.
Why there are so players at Game of throne OCTGN? it seams they don't have problem to play with censured cards and they are more than us.

Seriously i'm starting to think as Katagena and that piss me off

par Selpoivre Ven 2 Sep 2011 - 9:24

Yep, you are right, you have not seen me on Lackey because I didn't have much time these days, but as a matter of fact I was quite interested in joining you guys once my schedule starts emptying itself.
However, having to play with censored cards are a serious turn down for me, and if this restriction becomes real, chances are I will not join any online play.

And personnally, I don't care what works or does not work for AGoT... The game is different, the tools are different, the community is different so I don't see what any of this has to do with the matter at hand...

As for Nyarla's tool, I'd say providing card scans to build decks and providing scans to play online are two completely different things, and FFG might decide to revise their decision once they realise this...

And one last thing : You asked for everyone's opinion, so I gave you mine. If you only wanted to hear opinions similar to yours you should have said so Suspect

par kriss Ven 2 Sep 2011 - 9:45

edit : ok, some mistunderstanding ^^

par Selpoivre Ven 2 Sep 2011 - 9:48

My bad... I realize the last bit was over the edge and I'm sorry if I offened you, I had no intentions of doing so...

par FredhoT Ven 2 Sep 2011 - 10:28

Bon les poteaux, on se calme.

Je pense que notre maîtrise plus ou moins avancée de l'anglais joue aussi des tours dans l'interprétations des écrits de chacun.

Kriss, je lis tes posts entièrement avant de répondre, sois en assuré. Pour moi, aller modifier les cartes chaque fois qu'il y aura un update, même si c'est une solution, sera un obstacle à ma présence sur lackey.

Ceci dit, ce n'est pas parce qu'on utilise lackey une fois tous les mois qu'on n'a pas droit à pouvoir continuer à l'utiliser. Pour moi, avoir 5-6 joueurs de temps à autre sur lackey me suffit amplement. Je pense qu'il m'est arrivé 1 ou 2x de me connecter et de ne pas rencontrer soit Arxlite, soit msommi, soit Sadric ou encore toi, kriss. Bien sûr, je peux trouver des joueurs en face-à-face au club presque chaque semaine. Donc bien sûr je suis "moins à plaindre".

On a bien compris que ton intention est louable, mais moi je pense que le "mieux est parfois l'ennemi du bien". Ici le mieux, ce serait d'avoir des joueurs de CoC LCG en permanence sur lackey. Le bien, c'est la situation actuelle. Elle ne te satisfait pas, j'ai bien suivi. Mais ne nous fais pas "perdre" ce qui nous satisfait, nous!

Et il ne faut pas prendre tout ça personnellement. Je peux comprendre ta frustration de ne pas avoir de joueur en face-à-face dans ton cas. Il m'est arrivé la même situation avec AT-43 au club, après avoir investi plus de 300€ en armée, les figurinistes du club on "décidé" que comme le jeu n'était plus supporté par l'éditeur (faillite), il ne valait plus la peine d'être joué! Résultat, je me retrouve avec mes figs sur les bras qui prennent la poussière. Et ldans ce cas-à, le jeu online est "peu évident".

Allez, pourquoi ne pas continuer à laisser la communauté de e-joueurs de CoC lackey s'agrandir progressivement, bien à l'abris des foudres de FFG, comme tes championnats le démontrent (tu passes de 4 à 6 en 2 éditions)?

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